Relationship Death + Rebirth: How to Let Love Lead Again + Let Go of The Anxious-Avoidant Dance (Margo Running + Carrie Michelle)

Wellness + Wisdom | Episode 595

Can a relationship death be the beginning of true love?

Relationship Death + Rebirth: How to Let Love Lead Again + Let Go of The Anxious-Avoidant Dance (Margo Running + Carrie Michelle)Margo Running, Holistic and Spiritual Healer, accompanies Josh Trent and his partner, Carrie Michelle, on the Wellness + Wisdom podcast, episode 595, where together they unravel how their relationship had to die to be recreated anew without projecting their trauma onto each other, why they decided to stay together, and how Margo helped guide them through this process.

“When I saw you both loving each other so much, and yet this confusion of what that needs to look like. We're hereditary and generational trauma gets passed on. I saw all of our ancestors looking at this moment going “We didn't know how to make it good. Can you?” And we're like, yes, we are actually changing this understanding of love.”Margo Running


In This Episode, Margo Running + Carrie Michelle Uncover:

[01:30] Relationship Death + Rebirth

  • Carrie Michelle
  • Margo Running
  • What brought Carrie-Michelle and Josh to work with Margo.
  • Margo‘s story and what she dedicates herself to.
  • Why the real world is between the mind and the heart.

[08:00] The Anxious-Avoidant Dance

[13:45] Choosing to Be Together

  • Why true union feels different than what Josh thought it would.
  • The importance of choosing yourself.
  • Why Carrie Michelle felt like she was the source of Josh‘s suffering.
  • How she finally knows that Josh is choosing her from a place of love.

[18:45] What Is Love?

  • How to love someone even if they‘re not with you.
  • Why many people who love each other split up.
  • What love truly is.
  • Gabor Mate
  • You can change the understanding of love for yourself and the next generation.
  • Finding your own essence within a relationship.

[25:00] The Ceremony of Life

  • Josh‘s experience with plant medicine.
  • When the heart says yes and the mind says no.
  • The power of intention in a ceremony.
  • Why every moment in life should be a ceremony.
  • The importance of asking yourself, “What can I learn from you?”

[30:45] Love Doesn‘t Keep a Score

  • How Carrie Michelle recognized the battle of sexes in their relationship.
  • The reason why she never felt safe around men.
  • Why Josh was keeping a score in their relationship.
  • What made him finally understand what it means to choose yourself.

[34:45] Compassionate Inquiry

  • How Margo received Josh by asking him the right questions.
  • The purpose of gentle healing.
  • Why the integration of what you learned is the most important part of healing.
  • Your protective mechanisms are necessary to keep you safe.
  • Why Carrie Michelle felt scared to open up to Josh.

[41:45] Old Wounds Resurface in Relationships

  • Why Carrie Michelle needed to know Josh could love her even if it wasn‘t in service to him.
  • How she realized she wanted to be with him.
  • The ways Josh‘s decision to not be like his father with women played out in his relationships.
  • Why he needed a guarantee in everything in life that he was going to be ok.

[48:45] From Children to Parents

  • What keeps us from being present.
  • How as a parent you can sit with your children‘s feelings and make all of their feelings welcome.
  • What God means to Josh.
  • Parents do the best they can, even though it may hurt their children.
  • How Margo stays connected to her inner child and playfulness.
  • Why fairy tales and myths carry truth.

[57:00] Getting Past the Conflicts

  • How you can find your wounds in your body.
  • What Josh realized during the time he spent away from Carrie Michelle.
  • How Carrie Michelle knew in her soul she wanted to be with Josh despite all their problems.
  • Why she thought they would never record a podcast together.

[01:05:00] Softening the Heart

  • The softening Josh has felt in the past days.
  • What drove him to want big things in life.
  • David Goggings
  • How hurt people also want to play, even though they don‘t show it.
  • Finding Joe
  • How posture shows how you‘re protecting yourself.

[01:12:15] Projecting The Parental Wounds

  • How Margo stayed open to love despite having been hurt by men.
  • Letting someone go with honor and respect.
  • Why Carrie Michelle is committed to healing her wounds.
  • Both the anxious and the avoidant play a dynamic role in a relationship.
  • How Carrie Michelle switched to being avoidant in the relationship with Josh.
  • The way Josh‘s relationship with his mom played out in the relationship with Carrie Michelle.
  • Why the absence of someone in your life can be a gift.

[01:23:15] The Truth of Plant Medicine

[01:32:05] Finding a Way Back to Love

  • The tyrant that lived in Josh‘s mind.
  • Why men lean towards getting things done instead of resting.
  • Understanding what lives between two people.
  • How the same core wounds have been triggering fights in the relationship.
  • Why you should look for the “yes” before your mind figures out how to do it.

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Power Quotes From The Show

Love Doesn‘t Keep Score

“Love does not keep score. But I was keeping score because I thought if it doesn‘t work out, then I have all this evidence stacked to why she hurt me and why everything transpired the way it did. I was building a case as to if it didn‘t work out then like it was her fault. What was missing was me not loving Josh. Not choosing Josh. Not actually fucking choosing Josh. Not even knowing what it is to choose myself.”Josh Trent

Love Beyond A Relationship

“I didn't know if you were going to love me beyond our relationship. I had to know that you were going to love me even if it wasn't in service to you. It feels different when you can truly choose someone and you‘re not choosing someone out of fear of losing them.”Carrie Michelle

Let Go of Your Triggers

“I have to let go of everything that is triggering me, what I think is wrong, and what I'm blaming you, shaming you, or judging you about and just ask myself “What can I really learn from this?” You're not my dad, you're not my mom, but on some visceral level this lives in us. And we unconsciously push it onto the person that we love. It's just so sad that we do that. But it's liberating to have that awareness.”Josh Trent



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About Margo Running

Relationship Death + Rebirth: How to Let Love Lead Again + Let Go of The Anxious-Avoidant Dance (Margo Running + Carrie Michelle)San Francisco born, Euro descent, walking lightly on the land currently on Maui, the home of voyagers, the Kanaka Maoli
Margo has lived many incarnations in this life, many careers fully expressed, from cooking for 350 people daily, as a massage therapist, and kindergarten teacher; all for decades each period.

Every experience is for learning. She strives to craft unconscious reactions that divide into responses that connect, as she believes most suffering is from long-held suffering of disconnection.

Her work as a teacher has grown into support for parents so children can grow and thrive in a supportive community.
No website or social media. Families are welcome to contact her, though the ocean is where she‘ll be most of the time.

About Carrie Michelle

Relationship Death + Rebirth: How to Let Love Lead Again + Let Go of The Anxious-Avoidant Dance (Margo Running + Carrie Michelle)Carrie Michelle is living life to the fullest in Austin, Texas as a mother of two beautiful children, and with her soul-man, Josh.

As a transformational guide specializing in NLP and hypnotherapy, she empowers women to find their confidence to speak their truth.

Carrie Michelle has mentored with sacred-elders in postpartum, motherhood, soul-evolution and emotional intelligence—holding certifications in a wide range of healing modalities.

Carrie Michelle is currently developing a 2024 Instinctual Living online course to help fellow mothers and women to unlock their intuition and live authentically—by their instincts.

She is passionate about embracing our natural instincts and finding joy in the little moments, she holds sacred the ‘heart’s raw truth’ that illuminates our individual and collective hidden wisdom within.


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About Josh Trent

Josh Trent lives in Austin, Texas with his love Carrie Michelle, son Novah, and a cat named Cleo. He is the Founder of Wellness Force Media, host of the Wellness + Wisdom Podcast and the creator of the BREATHE: Breath & Wellness Program. Josh has spent the past 19+ years as a trainer, researcher, and facilitator discovering the physical and emotional intelligence for humans to thrive in our modern world. The Wellness Force Media Mission is to help humans heal mental, emotional, and physical health through podcasts, programs, and a global community that believes in optimizing our potential to live life well.

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